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Episode 7 - Blogging 3.0 with Jeff Fritz

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Episode 7 - Blogging 3.0 with Jeff Fritz
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Episode 7 - Blogging 3.0 with Jeff Fritz

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Episode Summary

Are you a budding new developer looking to learn the ropes of the .NET community? Well, look no further! Jeff Fritz, Program Manager at Microsoft and expert on the .NET community team, has you covered.

With his C# Fritz and Friends livestreams on Twitch, Jeff is providing new developers with an invaluable experience. Not only can you watch him and his team work on code and discuss pull requests, but you can also ask questions directly to him and get real-time answers.

To get the most out of it all, Jeff recommends using free Open Broadcaster Software (OBS). Not only does it have tutorials to help you get started, but it’s also an entertaining way to learn with other community members. Better yet, Jeff suggests slowly building your streaming equipment, rather than buying expensive stuff all at once.

So what are you waiting for? Follow Jeff on Twitter @csharpfritz and on Twitch at twitch.tv/csharpfritz) to stay up-to-date on all his latest projects. Then, pop open Discord, and get ready to laugh your way to becoming a .NET community pro!

Episode Transcription

Hello everyone and welcome to THE ..NET Core podcast - the only podcast which is devoted to:

and not forgetting The ..NET Core community, itself.

I am your host, Jamie “GaProgMan” Taylor, and this is episode 7: Blogging 3.0 with Jeff Fritz. In this episode I interviewed Jeff Fritz about live coding, building communities, and the process of managing open source projects via his live coding show. Some of you may know Jeff from his C# Fritz and Friends live stream on Twitch and Mixer; his work at Progress Telerik; or his work as Program Manager at Microsoft.

So lets sit back, open up a terminal, type in dotnet new podcast and let the show begin

Jamie

Thank you so much, Jeff, for agreeing to be on the podcast. You’re one of the first few people who are on this show and it’s still very early days as we’re recording. Only one episode has gone live, so you are right at the beginning.

Jeff

It’s great. Thanks for having me on. It’s good to be a trailblazer here.

Jamie

Thank you ever so much for the incredibly small Venn diagram of listeners to this show who haven’t heard of you through either your community outreach, your work at Microsoft and Telerik, or your Twitch stream. Could you perhaps introduce yourself a little?

Jeff

Sure. My name is Jeff Fritz. I’m a Program Manager at Microsoft. I work on the .NET community team and I help folks learn a little bit more about what we’re doing with .NET, with .NET Core, Visual Studio, and I help get folks connected with various resources they need at Microsoft events or get materials published out into the community so everybody can be successful with .NET. Learn a little bit about programming, whether it’s the Web, mobile applications using Xamarin, or building applications on Windows. So I do a little bit of everything around the .NETs.

Jamie

You must have a lot of information that you have to carry around with you everywhere.

Jeff

A little bit, yes.

Jamie

Is that perhaps where I saw the pirate hat? The ASP .NET pirate hat. Is that where that came from?

Jeff

Oh gosh, that’s a throwback. I did a thing at Telerik long time ago where as part of our developer advocacy efforts from Telerik, we would have what we call “Webinar a week.” And it was a series of Webinars each day for a whole week at the end of every product delivery cycle. So there’d be a new release of, “here’s controls for X, Y and Z.” And on Monday would be the WPF day and Tuesday might be the whatever day. Well, the day that I was scheduled to give my presentation was either the day before Halloween or the day after. So I decided that that October, “you know what I’m going to, I’m going to put on a pirate hat, do something silly and take pictures. And for my controls that I’m showing off from Telerik, I’m going to show off pictures of Jeff and a pirate hat,” and it kind of stuck and people thought it was funny and I kept right on leaning into that. And every now and again I go back and, and do the whole pirate thing, but gosh, I did it once here on a, on a Twitch stream in 2018, but I don’t think it’s been a couple of years since I had touched it.

Jamie

So maybe there’s this chance for a pirate hat renaissance.

Jeff

Oh, yeah, of course. So hats are really my thing. I’m kind of nutty with hats. And I try to wear a different ball cap each time I do a broadcast on the Twitch Video Network. And it helps to make it easy for folks to identify and say, “oh, yeah, here’s a video. Here’s a recording of something that I hadn’t seen because he’s wearing a blue cap or he’s wearing a pirate hat,” or gosh before the winter holidays. I was wearing a Santa hat. So just something to keep it different and keep it fresh.

Jamie

That’s fantastic. So for the people who may not have seen your Twitch stream, do you have an elevator pitch of sorts?

Jeff

Sure. Twitch is that live video streaming platform, right? You typically see folks playing Fortnite or PUBG or some of these other video games on, but a few folks about a year or so ago said, “you know what, let’s actually start writing some code out there. Let’s use this as more of a training and teaching platform,” because you’re able to see exactly what I’m doing both on my screen and with a little bit of camera work. And it becomes much more interactive than a recording that you might watch on YouTube or reading a blog post that somebody wrote out there on their website. Because you can ask those pending questions that you have with a very active chat room on a service like Twitch or any of the other video streaming services: YouTube Live, Mixer.

You can engage with viewers and get feedback. I like to think of the folks that are watching as pair programmers because they’re learning from me a little bit and they’re offering some insights, some tips on how I’m writing code that could improve it. I like to go and experiment on things on a video show that I haven’t necessarily done in the past. So to get folks chiming in with feedback is always a great feeling and it helps to make things interesting, not just for the viewers, but also for me. So it’s a great learning experience for everybody involved.

Jamie

I like it. So it’s more like in the same vein that learning from a book: you can’t ask the author, “why did you do it this way?” Or “why is it done this way?” Or “what does this mean?” You kind of have to sort of slog through it, don’t you have to keep reading and pushing on, whereas I guess with Twitch mixer, that kind of thing, because it’s interactive. Is it more of a classroom feel or is it more of a, like you say, a pair programming, “I’m going to try this, you’re going to keep an eye out for where I mess up,” or that kind of thing.

Jeff

The classroom comparison, I think is the best comparison that we could make right now. And that really is the model that I go after on my shows. I want to be very clear, very descriptive on the things that I’m building. I’m not trying to build something that I want to finish in a day or two here. I’m building something that I want to work on with the community. I want to accomplish something with such that they learn from it. So taking that classroom mentality approach means that those folks who are listening can feel free to interrupt the instructor with questions. They can get their hands on the material because all the code we’re writing is open source. Download it, change it, submit a pull request, and then it’s almost like they’re doing a homework assignment. Complete that, turn it in, and you know what the instructors will review and other folks in the chat room and in our community review and give you feedback on it. And you know what? We all learn from that. When you find errors, when you make suggestions for improvement, it’s a great growth experience for everybody.

But there are also folks out there who don’t so much want to teach, but they want to write some code and have that pair programmer set of eyes over their shoulder so that you can see, “oh, here’s how we’re building the next version of,” whatever they’re writing a game. And here’s how we write the way that your character will interact with the world.

That’s nice. It’s not very engaging, in my opinion. It’s something that you can certainly tune in. You could see how these things are built, but without having any stake in the game, without being able to say, “oh yeah, I helped contribute the,” whatever feature to that kind of feels like a half complete interaction. Feels very one way you’re watching television. I’d rather give the opportunity for folks to get involved, get interactive, and have that participation and recognition actually on the other side when they do participate successfully. The recognition that, “hey, thanks so much for contributing to that. You did a great job there, and we’re going to put you on the list of contributors.” I think that’s tremendous for anybody who’s learning and wants to grow in this industry.

Jamie

That’s fantastic, t really is. It fits in well with the old adage for newer developers, the folks who are maybe coming out of code camps or coming out of school, at least over here in the UK. You get told, “you can’t get a job without the experience and you can’t get the experience without a job.”

Jeff

Yeah.

Jamie

Working alongside you and other streamers like this, it gives them a chance to say, hey, yes, I don’t have any experience working in an office or a work environment, but I have submitted and contributed to these open source projects and you can go and have a look and check on these things.

Jeff

Exactly. If you’ve got a pointer, you can show, here’s what I contributed. Oh, and here’s the streamer reviewing it and what they had to say about it on an archived video somewhere on YouTube, twitch, wherever. It’s a good way to get experience to get your feet wet and get involved with something without having to spend a lot of time, without having to make some sort of a commitment to an employer or something. It’s very open ended, easy to jump in and jump out of.

Jamie

So in that aspect, I guess it gives the contributors an experience of what it might be like when they do get a job in the real world with submitting pull requests and working with other people and, you know, that kind of two way communication and the discussions that we have around, “well, you know, my module is going to do this. It’s going to accept these inputs. It’s going to give you those outputs,” those sort of design decisions, I guess.

Jeff

Absolutely. The teamwork the interaction because it’s disconnected when they would be working on some code while away from the stream, the stream isn’t broadcasting that interaction of, “okay, I created issues, I opened pull requests, I went through a code review.” That experience by itself is tremendous. That’s absolutely something that a new developer will see when they get into the real work environment.

Jamie

So obviously you were very heavily involved in the .NET community before you started doing the live streaming and this sort of interactive system, as it were, that you set up. So you were involved in the community before then and obviously you’re still involved in the community now. How has the community changed? I guess, has the community changed? Has the fact that we can be a lot more interactive with each other on a real-time basis made it easier to communicate and spread ideas or has it kind of gotten in the way?

Jeff

I don’t think the community has changed significantly. It’s moved. We don’t see as many user groups right now and user group interactions are down and a little bit of that has to do with some organizational changes and interest from other technologies that have sprouted up and that’s okay, that’s fine, that’s the way that these things, these technologies come and go. There’s waves of interest and then the interest declines and then it’ll ramp back up with more when the next big product, the next big set of features comes out and that’s fine, those types of things happen.

But the places that the community hangs out online has significantly changed. Where Stack Overflow was some place that you saw a lot of .NET developers hanging out and answering questions. The .NET community has pulled back from Stack Overflow you used to see 5-10 years ago, lots and lots and lots of people writing blog posts. And when we got into 2013, 2014, 2015 blog posts from .NET, folks had slowed. A lot of the content that people wanted to know about had slowed down. It was written there was no reason to keep writing the same thing over again. So people backed off of blogging, but .NET core started coming 2015, 2016, 2017, and there’s a renaissance in..NET blogging. So the community is shifting.

Conferences, live conferences. There’s certainly a lot of folks that still attend that. There’s new features always being released for folks in our technical community here. And people want to, of course, stay on the bleeding edge. They want to make sure they know what they need to know so they can keep their career growing, moving in the right direction. And I look at the live streaming platforms as an extension of some of the video training platforms that sprouted up between LinkedIn, Learning, Pluralsight, Wintellect; you have these platforms that have the video training that yes, you can tune into, but how do you ask questions of the instructors? And it’s all pre recorded? Okay, fine.

So some of those organizations started running webinars, “tune in at this time and Author XYZ will give you the update on their award winning course ABC, and you’ll be able to ask questions of the author.” Great. That’s a fantastic interaction, but I think it’s almost a throwback to talk radio to be able to do an interaction like this and move the community, grow it. I think of it almost like Blogs 3.0 because when you look at what happens with the video training compared to - right video training is great. It gets you in, it gets you the material you need. It’s not searchable, it’s not something that you can interact with, it’s typically locked behind a paywall. And these are all things that are challenges for people who are just starting up: “how do I know that I’m going to buy the right video access? How do I know I’m going to watch the right video access?”

So by having this throwback, like I said, almost to talk radio in the approach with live streaming live streaming video on the Twitch service or mixer YouTube wherever, I think is a tremendous asset for people to jump in. Figure out what they want to know and where they want to grow. And to be able to interact with a host or hosts in cases where there’s a guest on is tremendously valuable for people getting into the industry. And as a community, to shift in that direction means tremendous things because then those user groups that might be struggling to get 20-50 people at their event. Well, they can actually stream, set a camera up in the room, wire up to the presenter’s laptop, and stream the event out to mixer or Twitch. Now you have 20-50 people in the room and you’ve got maybe 100-150 people online watching as well. All right, now we’re topping out at about 150-2000 people watching your user group. That’s pretty good. And for us as a community, there’s always going to be a great community user group that we could tune in and watch with topics that, you know what folks in my area might not know about. I don’t know about TensorFlow. And you know what, there’s some folks in a user group in Virginia, a couple of states away that are talking about TensorFlow. Fantastic. Tell us all about it. And now I’m someone in my geographical community that knows about that and I can go forth, learn a little bit more. And now my geographical community has those resources. So we’re going to break down some of those geographical walls as well.

And I think that means just tremendous things for our community going forward.

Jamie

I suppose perhaps the next biggest innovation will be some way of presenting all of that information across the different providers and being able to go, “I would like to know about a user group that is happening in, say, New York State. There is a talk on Blazor,” for instance, and be able to sort of double click and just start watching and interacting. Maybe that’s the next innovation.

Jeff

Yeah, there’s definitely something to be said about cataloguing, scheduling and getting those folks into a commonplace so that you do have that catalogue. And you know what? Yeah, it’s 06:00 p.m. Here in the States, it’s 11:00 p.m. In London. But you’ll be able to tune in late at night and watch that New York user group talking about Blazor. And you know what, if you don’t get a chance to see all of it, maybe it’s recorded and available later and you can still tune back in, catch up on it, and at the very least see the recording and learn something new. But if you’re able to tune in and watch, you can ask questions of the speaker and have that rich user group interaction through the Internet video.

It’s a great idea. There’s really going to be a lot of opportunity for everybody to cross pollinate across geographies as this grows.

Jamie

Yeah, you’re completely right. So like with the John Galloway, Scott Hanselman, Damien Edwards do on a Tuesday, I believe.

Jeff

Yes, the ASP .NET Community stand up. So every Tuesday they talk with their product team: “here’s what’s going on. Here’s the cool things we’re working on, answer questions from the audience.” And that’s tremendous. It’s a great resource to have, but there’s so much more that they can’t offer that other folks in our community can. It’s great that Damian shows us. Here’s the latest signalR features about X, Y and Z and they’re really cool and you can do all this great stuff. But as an integrator, as somebody who’s going to go take that information and implement something to be able to get that experience story, to be able to see that recipe right, that formulated implementation that somebody else went through as they worked with the tool, that’s really valuable, too. That’s almost just as valuable as the program manager who’s responsible for the product, showing you exactly how it works.

So I think there’s a lot to be said about growing that generation of speakers who can participate and present on this platform showing based on their experience, “here’s how you should wire in signalR with a Blazor front end and some Xamarin that works in a mobile app. Make something that works really nice together,” because you won’t hear Damian Edwards talking about Xamarin and that’s okay. His job is .NET core.

So that type of user experience and kind of driven, “here’s what I saw, here’s how I was able to build something really cool.” Those types of talks and interactions and presentations that are real world experience from non product people, non Microsoft product people, are oh my gosh, extremely valuable. Not just for other folks in our community to listen to, but also for the Microsoft folks to hear so they can see how someone’s experience with the product was, like I said, this is a win win all the way around. I really like the interactions that we’re going to be able to have as a community.

Jamie

And like you say, even if it crosses a time zone, you can still sort of, in effect, catch up. Your stream usually goes up whilst I’m at work, but I can catch that on my commute home or parts of it on my commute home. And obviously the ASP .NET community stand up happens pretty late over here. So I usually catch that the next morning sort of thing. And it is, it’s almost like a catch up. Like you say, it’s not as interactive, it’s more like you’re watching and someone else is asking the questions. So I guess in that aspect, it’s like being a silent viewer at a conference, I guess, because you’re just sitting back and letting everyone else answer the questions, except you can hit pause and go back and rewind and maybe put the captions on if you miss something, I guess.

Jeff

Absolutely. So I think what’s interesting when you look at how the ASP .NET Community Stand Up works, it is very much a talk show. They don’t write so much code in it. They might show a couple of samples, but they’re not writing code. And it’s something you can very much listen to in the car. You don’t really need to be watching, right. If the video goes away, no big deal. But I think when you look at something like what I’m doing, video is very much a part of it. You absolutely need to see what’s going on. But as a host, I try to make it descriptive enough that if video isn’t possible, if you don’t have a high enough resolution to be able to read the code that I’m presenting on screen, that’s okay, too, because I’m describing it.

Jamie

Yeah, exactly. And I think that helps as well for folks who either aren’t as quick at reading what’s going on on screen.

Jeff

As well oh, yes.

Jamie

Or if there’s a lot going on with the chat, or if someone is I don’t know what the political term for it is, but we all work at different speeds. We can only take in so much information and cogitate along it and figure out, “oh right, okay. So this class has these properties which is coming from this namespace, which is over there, and it’s included from this package reference.” Some people may not have the experience to be able to hold all of that information all at once, but obviously they can see and hear it at the same time. So if they get lost, “oh right, that’s where that came from.” And like you say, they can interact with the speaker and figure out, “where did you pull that one from?”

Jeff Yeah

Jamie

I remember not so long back, full day of Fritz and Friends, and you had lots of different people on, and I think one of the last people that you had on was Scott Hanselman, and he was doing something with Docker with multiple entry points, and I hadn’t seen that before. So I asked in the chat, you know, “what’s the deal? What’s the deal with multiple entry points?” And and just being able to say, “hey, what’s this all about? Why is that there?” And, I mean, it was I feel like it was a 30 second diversion, but I got all of the information that I needed to be able to understand the context for what was going on.

Jeff

Yeah, right. To have that touch point is so valuable to be able to get that feedback from some of these folks who you know what? It’s really hard to reach them at a conference or at an in person event. It’s a heck of a lot easier to interact online like this. I’m thrilled that you enjoyed that. I tried to do those workshop type of events every couple of months here, and I’ve actually got another one coming up here in September that I’m really looking forward to.

Jamie

Oh, fantastic. I can’t wait now.

So with that in mind, if someone came to you today and said, “I want to get started with .NET, with any of the .NETs, .NET, Framework, .NET, Core, Mono, Xamarin, all of those different technologies,” and they said to you, “where should I start? How should I start?” Would you say, “go read this blog. Go listen to that podcast. Go see this person at a school?” Or would you say, “try and find a live streaming twitch or mixer or what have you channel and sort of just sit and try and take some something in and maybe interact with the people there?”

Jeff

That’s a good question. And I think I would suggest people to start with either an in person workshop or some pre-recorded video training to get you that type of hands on, visible, tangible interaction with what it is you’re trying to learn. There’s folks that learn very well from books, from written documentation. They know who they are, and they know that that’s what works for them. They aren’t going to be the ones asking that type of question. I would definitely push someone towards the pre-recorded video training, towards an online workshop. Whether it’s a webinar or there’s a number of folks out there that are doing live workshops, and then once you get past that, to jump into a live stream with somebody who’s teaching some of these concepts and there’s a bunch of them out there that are doing this now, it’s really going to help you to have that level of interaction. Because getting help from teachers is how we learned when we were in grade school, when we were coming up in our youth. And I think that that’s really important to have that level of interaction. I don’t want to say a mentor, but to have somebody that you can go to when you do have those questions. And that’s what we tried to do with Stack Overflow. And that’s certainly out there when you need a quick answer for a tech question. But I would look at streaming as probably the second or third resource to start reviewing once you get your feet wet and you figure out that, “yes, this is a technology, this is something that I do want to learn.” Okay, then start following those several times a week streams from folks in the community.

Jamie

I see. Okay. Do you have any advice for anyone who may be listening, who wants to get started in the sort of livestreaming, the sort of teaching situation that you found yourself in?

Jeff

So I would suggest if you’re going to consider getting involved with live streaming, be ready to get involved and committed at the same level that you would with a blog or a podcast. Predictable repetition and schedule is extremely important with the stream, just as important it is with your release schedule for a podcast, with being able to blog once or twice a week at a minimum, so that you get people coming back and reading your articles. It’s that same level of commitment.

But once you do have that time that you can commit to that, then to say, “all right, what do I need after that?” As long as you have a good internet connection, you have a decent video cart so that you can do the video rendering appropriately and quickly so that it is rendered and transmitted live as you’re presenting. There’s no other real expenses you need to get into to get up and running with streaming. Figure out your niche, figure out what it is that you want to share, figure out what you want to work on.

And the tools are free out there. You can download OBS, the open broadcaster software that’s at obsproject.com. You can grab that, get it configured very easily. It’s got a number of tutorials from all kinds of folks out there showing how to use it, how to configure it, and it’s becoming easier to use all the time. But that’s really the Swiss army knife. That’s the tool that everybody uses to stream.

Don’t worry about getting involved with all the things that you see the gamer folks do, but there are things that you can easily set up and add into a production that make it really fun and interactive and interesting to your viewers. The thing that you need to remember is you’re not just teaching, but you’re entertaining people. They’ve tuned in to watch, to learn something, and to have a good time. And if they’re not having a good time, if they’re bored, if they’re falling asleep, if they’re not hearing things from you that they like, you know, if they’re not happy with what it is you’re saying, if you’re talking about things that would upset folks, you’re going to lose viewers. That’s not why they’re tuned in to watch you.

So it’s easy to get up and running, keep those couple of tips in mind, and you can certainly get running very quickly with minimal effort. But when you want to start polishing, you want to start making things better. You want to really go after some great content. You want to make your presentation look better, feel better. There’s a whole bunch of tools and hardware out there that you can get that will really make your stream, make your video presentation look absolutely professional.

Jamie

Wow. Hopefully that will answer someone’s question. And obviously, I guess there’s also I know that you have a blog post on “the equipment that I use,” sort of thing.

Jeff

Yes, I need to update that. I’ve made some updates since and it’s kind of towards what I was saying. I’ve built up towards what I have and what I use for making these presentations. I didn’t just go out one night and say, “you know what, I’m going to start streaming on Twitch and drop $5,000 on equipment.” No, no. I slowly this is what I have. I have this camera. I have this facility, I have this computer, I have this microphone. Well, let’s start with that and see what happens. Okay, well, I need a better microphone. I’ll spend a couple of bucks and get a nicer microphone. I need a better video card. All right, let’s spend a couple of bucks, go buy a video card. But it took time to build up. It’s not something that overnight I just said, “yes, let’s go by the $1000 microphone and spend $1,000 on a great camera and redecorate my office so it’s soundproof studio,” and no, slowly build up to these things.

Jamie

I’ll put a link in the show notes to your blog post about the equipment that you use just so that people can get an idea of maybe where they want to be working towards.

Jeff

Sure.

Jamie

If you look at the Surface Books, MacBooks, whatever, they all have cameras integrated

Jeff

Yup.

Jamie

And they all have microphones. They may not be the best microphones and cameras, but it’s enough to get you started, I guess.

Jeff

Right. And you don’t have to necessarily be on camera the entire time you’re coding. Right. That’s something that I do as part of mine. But nothing says that you have to be on camera. You can very easily be on microphone. People can hear you. It’s more compelling for people to see you. But you can absolutely get started with a good MacBook, with a good SurfaceBook that has a good video card, and you’re able to push that decent resolution. You don’t have to go all the way to high def, but you can start at 720. You can even go lower than that if you need to, and present and share some great code online.

Jamie

Well, the only question I have left is where can listeners find out more about you and connect with you?

Jeff

Sure. So my primary touch point in the community is Twitter. So twitter.com/csharpfritz is where you’ll find me. And of course, four days a week I’m broadcasting on Twitch right now. That’s twitch.tv/csharpfritz, and I’m always quick to answer questions on Twitter when I’m not broadcasting. If you go over to Twitch, you’ll see how to get into the chat room, how to interact when I’m broadcasting. Wen I’m not broadcasting, there’s also a Discord server, and Discord is that Gamer version of Slack does the exact same stuff, has a great voice channel on it. But there’s a bunch of us on a Discord server that’s linked from my Twitch channel. You can go to that Twitch URL and you’ll see a link to Discord. You can click that. It’s free, easy for anybody to join. And there’s a bunch of us on that server that are talking about projects on stream, answering questions and setting up materials that I might talk about on the next stream. So those are three different ways you can get in touch with me if you want to learn and talk more about streaming or .NET, visual Studio, all that stuff.

Jamie

All that remains, really, is to thank you again for being on the show and connecting with me today. And like I say, being one of the first, I guess.

Jeff

Cool.

Jamie

It’s quite exciting. I’ve started this project in the hopes that will help bridge some of the smaller gaps in the community. And I feel perhaps I’ve overreached by going straight to a few of the folks from Microsoft, but it’s worth a try, you know.

Jeff

Absolutely nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Jamie

Precisely.

Jeff

Cool. Well, good luck. And I’m I’m glad to be one of the first.

Jamie

Thank you ever so much for being on the show.

Jeff

All righty.

Wrapping Up

That was my interview with Jeff Fritz. Be sure to check out the show notes for a bunch of links to some of the stuff that we covered, and a collection of text snippets from the interview. The show notes, as always, can be found at dotnetcore.show.

And don’t forget to spread the word, leave a rating or review on your podcatcher of choice, and to come back next time for more ..NET Core goodness.

I will see you again real soon. See you later folks.

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